Interesting exchange with a Utah legislator (long, probably boring as well)

[Hodur]

You've been warned.

In the paper this morning I read an article about tourism in Utah. The gist of it was that there was a commission set up to study the effect of our weird liquor laws on tourism. A bunch of Mormons, including the Mormon church itself, cried about that, so they changed the study to be on tourism in general. This is because alcohol laws here are a sacred cow, even though they're oppressive and useless, and the thought police will come get you if you even think about considering the fact that those laws have detrimental effect on tourism. They do, they have a seriously detrimental effect, but the usual way of dealing with that sort of thing here is to pretend it doesn't exist.

So in that article, a respresentative to the state House is quoted as saying this:

"I am not interested at all in loosening any of the alcohol laws we have. They are one of the things that makes the state unique and improves our quality of life."

Well, I bopped over to the utah.gov web site and found this feller's email address, because stuff like this makes me bounce off the ceiling. I sent the follow email:

-------------------

Mr. ______,

In today's edition of the Salt Lake Tribune (2/11/05) you are quoted as
saying:

"I am not interested at all in loosening any of the alcohol laws we
have. They are one of the things that makes the state unique and improves our
quality of life."

This is a great example of one of the saddest things about this state: your use of the word "our" only extends to your fellow Mormons and other extreme conservatives. It does not extend to me, who am neither Mormon nor conservative. In fact, as a professional musician, the bizarre and unnecessary liquor laws in this state directly impact my quality of life in a negative way. The lack of a thriving music scene here is a result of this kind of herd mentality which results in legislation motivated by fear. There's not a single shred of evidence that our liquor laws do anything but annoy those of us who drink and squash any hope of a nightlife, but then that's exactly what
they're designed to do.

Mormon Utahn republicans argue with me when I say that, they say that the laws are designed to do ambiguous and unmeasurable things like "improve our quality of life" and "save our children", but that's standard issue obfuscation for this state. Instead of really saying what they mean, our conservative legislators can't quite face the idea of being totally honest and saying that those laws, and others like them, are meant to prevent as many people as possible from doing anything that the church frowns on.

However, that in itself is difficult to pin down, because what the church (leadership) says and what the church (membership) does are frequently at odds. For instance, the church claims that it does not involve itself in politics. But in fact, quite the opposite is true. The church (leadership) knows good and well that it must only speak and the church (membership), including all legislators, will fall all over themselves to conform, even in spite of the fact that in most urban areas of this state, legislators constituents are 20% to 55% non-mormon.

That's sad because it makes a mockery of democracy. Democracy is for ALL people, not just the ones like you. Democracy must hear the will of the people, but it must consider the diversity of the people when looking at matters of choice. Drinking, going to a bar, listening to live music, and ultimately making a living doing what I do are matters of choice for me and other people that should not be legislated away because of a belief system that I do not share. To do otherwise is to seriously disregard constitutional guarantees of freedom of and FROM religion.

I'll reconsider this position if you or your colleagues can somehow demonstrate how my wishing to drink alcohol impacts you negatively in any way, but since we've never met, I've never been arrested, never been involved in any alcohol related accident or incident, do not have any sort of alcohol related problems in my life (apart from those created by the laws in this state), and I have raised two kids who are successful and rarely drink themselves, I don't see how it would be possible for you to show a correlation. It's true others abuse alcohol and other drugs, but aim your laws at the offenders and don't paint us all with the same brush.

That is if you're truly sincere about serving the people of this state.

-------------------

Now I didn't expect a response from this guy, because I send emails like this one fairly frequently and they usually just ignore me because of exactly what I said above: I don't conform so they don't care. I don't exist as far as they're concerned. However, this guy did get back to me, and pretty quickly. His reply:

------------------

We could say the same thing about tobacco, drugs, gambling, and every other vice. But one thing is certain. Nothing we ever do is done in isolation. What we do does impact those around us. Whether you choose to deny it or not, alcohol damages bodies and minds. There are those who gamble and don't become addicted, just like alcohol, but the very fact that they support that business promotes it to others. I've seen too many people close to me who's lives are ruined by alcohol. And that has nothing to do with religion. Their lives leave a scar on mine. The less alcohol in a society the better, kinder, more prosperous, and happier are the people. Don't throw your religious bias at me. It's a false argument and an excuse to keep making a bad choice for yourself and those around you.

-----------------

You notice that his entire premise is that alcohol, and all those other "vices" he mentioned, are axiomatically evil. Wasn't that what I was trying to point out? And yet in his mind, it's I that has the bias. Huh?

Anyway, if you've managed to read this far, what do you think about this exchange?

[Robin of Spiritwood]

You notice that his entire premise is that alcohol, and all those other "vices" he mentioned, are axiomatically evil. Wasn't that what I was trying to point out? And yet in his mind, it's I that has the bias. Huh?

Anyway, if you've managed to read this far, what do you think about this exchange?

You are beginning to sound like a non-conformist & Democrat (not the party, the philosophy). Good for you! :smile:

Would you say that you are free from bias concerning the Mormons? I wouldn't. But I too am biased about religious groups.

The studies done regarding anti-smoking legislation have uniformly demonstrated health benefits, extending to the non-smokers. Alcohol related problems take up about 30 percent of our local hospital beds(psyche, trauma, and gen. med) and account for less than 10 percent in countries like Saudi. There's a fraction of the smoking & a fraction of the drinking public that really have a problem, which extends out to their contacts.
IMHO, the benefits do not outweigh the risks. From a public health standpoint, if alcohol and tobbacco were drugs, they'd be banned.

[Raina]

I think... it's funny, but typical of what our country is comin to kinda.

Sure, Alcahol, Gambling, Smoking are considered some of the more major vices in our lives not yet outlawed. Then again, what is a vice and what makes it less acceptable than things that aren't considered so (driving, sports, working) that are as or can have as negative influence on one's life but are considered 'acceptable' .

Personally sounds like he needs to realize what the government and politics are for, which isn't to determine right or wrong, but to regulate and provide a safe environment.

Heck, I just got back from Germany, ya know, I'd say Easily that more people over there smoke, and drink... even drink in excess more often, and we won't even start on the alcahol content. Yet, I bettcha statisticly as a country they have a considerably smaller ratio of people who are truely 'harmed' by it.

I think it's a thing in the US, that groups/people trying to control of 'protect' us from things we don't need protection from, only thrusts us as a nation into a state where those items actually become a problem. Definatly not the other way around.

-Rai

[Sybeus]

From a public health standpoint, if alcohol and tobbacco were drugs, they'd be banned.

I'm confused. Alcohol is clearly a drug, as are some of the chemicals in tobacco :) They are just not considered dangerous enough to be controlled substances (in the sense that it requires a prescription or is outright banned) in most countries. Is that what you meant by drug?

[Kyrian]

Anyway, if you've managed to read this far, what do you think about this exchange?

I'll start by saying that some life's most difficult debates are often the most heated.

You two are arguing over something that really can not be proven or disputed. The entire argument is based on nothing more than a perception. It is a very difficult one, too.

Look at me, for example. I support drinking but think smoking should be banned and illegal. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that I like to drink and despise tobacco smoke? ;)

Alcohol is a drug, and certainly one that is proven to be harmful.
Tobacco (especially loaded with Nicotine) has also proven to be very harmful.

Of course, in the US we do not ban everything that is bad for us, otherwise we'd have no automobiles, no fuel and no chocolate chip cookies!

It then becomes, where should we draw the line?

One would argue that alcohol is many times more dangerous than marijauna, but its a tough argument to make since one is illegal and the other legal and they affect people in different ways.

If the majority of people turned around tommorow and banned alcohol permanently, I would probably just deal with it. Sure, I would miss my social drinking from time to time, but in the end, I can totally understand why people would want to do it. Because the rules are the same for everyone, I could deal with it. If someone told me that only I could not have alcohol, but others could, then I would have a problem.

In regards to the alcohol, it really depends on where you are coming from, what angle you are taking.

For example, if you talk about the economy, well then you can make a great argument for alcohol. It literally provides jobs, entertainment, etc. Socially, it does quite a bit. Artists also talk about drugs, including alcohol, being a real aid.

On the other side of the fence, there is the cost to taxpayers that alcohol causes, from courtroom fees to the cost of breathalyzers (and police coverage) down to rising medical and insurance cost. You can also talk about the loss of life from alcohol-induced actions and drunk driving incidents, which are horrifyingly common.

If you look at your own case individually, chances are that you (the metaphoric you) are a responsible drinker. Why can't I booze? I sober up before driving, and I don't drink more than I should. I'm a happy drunk and don't get violent, etc.

But the first time that other drunk, the one you don't know, slams into your 17-year-old daughter's car on her way to the grocery store to get milk, killing her instantly, your whole perception of alcohol could change in a heartbeat. At that point, you might gladly be willing to take all of the good that comes from alcohol away from every living person on the planet, just to hold your child for one more minute.

Of course, if alcohol was banned, it would still be around. That has been proven, but atleast you could then blame the person who did it as being a criminal, or the law enforcement agencies for failing to do their job. Under the current rules, you would have to hold yourself responsible as well. Each day that I decide to crack open a cold beer, or drink a good wine at dinner, I am actively supporting the fact that some innocent people are dying every day from a drunk driving accident. I'm making a conscious choice to support that loss of life. It's pretty sadenning really.

The same is true about anything dangerous. I burn fuel in my car, and as a result, I support indirectly all the evils that pollution and oil spills cause. If I support gun ownership for citizens, then I am partially to blame every time a 7 year old kid blows his own brains out.

Have I said anything here in my post? Not really because I am not sure as to where I stand, but when it comes to alcohol, tobacco and any drug for that matter, I can certainly see both sides of the argument.

[Raina]

But the first time that other drunk, the one you don't know, slams into your 17-year-old daughter's car on her way to the grocery store to get milk, killing her instantly, your whole perception of alcohol could change in a heartbeat. At that point, you might gladly be willing to take all of the good that comes from alcohol away from every living person on the planet, just to hold your child for one more minute.

Of course, if alcohol was banned, it would still be around. That has been proven, but atleast you could then blame the person who did it as being a criminal, or the law enforcement agencies for failing to do their job. Under the current rules, you would have to hold yourself responsible as well. Each day that I decide to crack open a cold beer, or drink a good wine at dinner, I am actively supporting the fact that some innocent people are dying every day from a drunk driving accident. I'm making a conscious choice to support that loss of life. It's pretty sadenning really.

The same is true about anything dangerous. I burn fuel in my car, and as a result, I support indirectly all the evils that pollution and oil spills cause. If I support gun ownership for citizens, then I am partially to blame every time a 7 year old kid blows his own brains out.
I'll just say that I compleetly disagree with ya here Kyr, something being legal shouldn't / dosen't allow people to be less responsible, nor does it mean you support in any way, those people who are not responsible.

-Rai

[Kyrian]

I'll just say that I compleetly disagree with ya here Kyr, something being legal shouldn't / dosen't allow people to be less responsible, nor does it mean you support in any way, those people who are not responsible.
-Rai

I did not say that it meant you supported irresponsible behavior, but assuming that everyone will be responsible when handling something dangerous is being unrealistic.

There is often a very big difference between theory and practice. Theoretically, all adults should be able to drink responsibly. In practice, a massive number of them do not, and kill innocent people. If we're going to make the conscious decision to allow every adult to drink alcohol, then we are partially responsible for the end result of those actions, as hard as it may be to admit to ourselves. Not completely responsible, but we were aware, in advance, that it was going to happen, and made the decision to allow it to happen.

I'm not saying alcohol should be banned, but turning the other cheek entirely is just not facing the truth in my opinion. People get very upset when they feel you are taking their freedoms away, and rightfully so. Freedom is precious, but real freedom often has a price.

As I said, it's not an easy argument, but its important to look at the whole picture sometimes to understand where a person may be coming from.

[Hodur]

I often wonder whether any demonstrable link can be made between restrictive alcohol laws and the number of alcohol related deaths per capita. I doubt it, simply because alcohol is available everywhere, in some places it's easier to get and you have to jump through some hoops. Anyone who's ever had an addiction can tell you that it really enhances your planning skills. If the liquor stores are closed on Sundays or Holidays (as they are here) then you have to make sure you go the night before. People who abuse a substance are going to obtain that substance. Look at our war on drugs: in spite of billions of dollars spent, meth and crack use continues to rise. I believe I read that it leveled off last year somewhat, but my point is that there is no correlation between enforcement and use. Education is the only tool that decreases problems. If you educate people on the hazards of driving drunk then less people drive drunk. Let's spend the money on alternatives to drunk driving, like taxis and limos as well as programs to help people stop substance abuse. But if they should get caught breaking the law, especially if others are harmed, then the laws should be directed to the offenders. I hate laws that assume that I am an offender when I'm not.

I think if you looked at the stats, you would find that alcohol related accidents are fewer in Utah, not because of the laws but because of the influence of the mormon church. I do not think that you'd find that serious traffic accidents are commensurately lower, though. Utahns are the worst drivers I've ever seen. If you think about drinking and driving and being a form of driving with a distraction, then eating, talking on the phone, and having a conversation with a passenger should also be illegal, because those things are not condemned by the local church but the certainly pose as much of a hazard is drunk drivers.

I did not say that it meant you supported irresponsible behavior, but assuming that everyone will be responsible when handling something dangerous is being unrealistic.

There is often a very big difference between theory and practice. Theoretically, all adults should be able to drink responsibly. In practice, a massive number of them do not, and kill innocent people. If we're going to make the conscious decision to allow every adult to drink alcohol, then we are partially responsible for the end result of those actions, as hard as it may be to admit to ourselves. Not completely responsible, but we were aware, in advance, that it was going to happen, and made the decision to allow it to happen.

I'm not saying alcohol should be banned, but turning the other cheek entirely is just not facing the truth in my opinion. People get very upset when they feel you are taking their freedoms away, and rightfully so. Freedom is precious, but real freedom often has a price.

As I said, it's not an easy argument, but its important to look at the whole picture sometimes to understand where a person may be coming from.

[Alyssia Kanath]

Alcohol...it's a bit of an odd subject for me.

My first memory of my father is me at 2 years old...him drunk...and his fist slamming into my mouth...

Then there was him drunk...and killing my cat by throwing her against the wall because she startled him and jumped on his lap...

When my parents divorced I thought I was away from it...but enter my alcoholic uncle...and years of family violence ensues... getting more and more violent as I got older and got less inclined to put up with his behavior and treatment of the rest of the family. I truly believe that if I had not finally moved away from them...the man would no longer be alive and I would probably be in jail for his death...and my son would be without a mother. It almost happened once...sadly.

I've had friends killed by drunk drivers...and a few friends killed BECAUSE they were drunk drivers. three of those who were driving while intoxicated in high school died very horrific deaths...they were all together in the car. the driver was impaled on the gear shift...the one in the passenger seat was tangled in the car engine...and the one who I was closest to....was wedged into the back window...and when his mother asked for his clothes afterwards they told her that they could not give her his jacket...as most of his internal organs were still in it.

On the other hand...I drank my share in college... But it lost it's glamour...and I now rarely if ever drink. I think I've had alcohol three times in the past three years. I'm one of those people who knows my limit and refuses to drink to the point of losing my faculties...and can sober up rather quickly if I need to. I'm a happy drunk luckly...no violence on my part unlike the men in my family. The brash Irish-ness comes out and I can be rather entertaining...but it also makes me sick to my stomach...and I'm not talking about the hangover because I rarely have them. It literally can make me ill to drink at times... And my liver isn't in the best shape due to all the medications I've had to take in the recent years and I fear it can't process alcohol properly anymore.

I've seen both sides of the coin where alcohol is involved. The good and the bad. personally I would not feel sad if alcohol were outlawed, I can easily do without it. (I dunno about Ruden though :p He loves his occasional beer and ale.) But I don't believe it will ever happen...it's too interwoven into the culture. They tried once and look what happened? It just got bootlegged...people drank anyway...violence erupted over it...making something illegal doesn't stop people from doing it. If someone wants to do something they're going to do it despite what the law says on most occasions. Especially when it's something addictive like alcohol or cigarettes or drugs.

Cigarettes? I hate smoking but I do admit I do it. I quit three times. I was never before recently a heavy smoker. at heaviest I smoked a pack a month. I quit for six years the first time. The second time I quit when I got pregnant with Connor and quit for two years. Then my mother died and I fell into depression and that's when I really started smoking heavily. I currently smoke a pack a day abouts. I quit a few months ago...for about 3 months. But by now the second I start stressing out I just pick up another cigarette. I hate smoking...I hate the smell...the taste...after every cigarette I have to drink something or take a bite of something or brush my teeth just to get the taste out of my mouth. But the addiction is stronger than my disliking of it. Of everything I've really found the nicotine addiction to be one of the strongest ones I've ever come across. Maybe because it IS so easily available...can just go to the store to buy more, right? Well...up in Canada here the cigarettes are horribly expensive...nearly ten dollars a pack. The price and taxes on them make it a bit easier to not want them =p ...but it's not enough. Once again if cigarettes were illegal I really think it wouldn't matter...people would smoke anyway. However it would keep those who don't smoke from having to deal with it in public situations.

bottom line...people are going to do what they want to do no matter what anyone tells them. Look at all the drugs that ARE illegal....and look at the millions who use them anyway. But you know ...in truth...in my opinion...alcohol is really the most dangerous of all of them. But then again ...a stick is dangerous in the hands of the wrong person. People need to learn to police themselves...learn to take responsibility for their own actions...and not rely on the law or their religion to keep them in line. If you can't take responsibility for your own actions and make the concious choice to do or not do something...what the law says doesn't mean squat. There are millions of people out there who DO drink responsibly...it's a shame they have to pay for the ones who can't do that.

I'm on the fence...half of me really hates alcohol and what it can do...because I've been a victim of it. But the other half of me really says that it's not my place to tell people what they can and can't do and as long as it doesn't affect me then more power to them. But it has affected me....

But also I don't believe in punishing someone for something they're not responsible for.

I'm rambling AGAIN :rolleyes: I know... These are all just personal thoughts and aren't meant to sway anyone's opinions or debate. Just adding my perspective.

[Kyrian]

Alcohol...it's a bit of an odd subject for me.

My first memory of my father is me at 2 years old...him drunk...and his fist slamming into my mouth...

Then there was him drunk...and killing my cat by throwing her against the wall because she startled him and jumped on his lap...

When my parents divorced I thought I was away from it...but enter my alcoholic uncle...and years of family violence ensues... getting more and more violent as I got older and got less inclined to put up with his behavior and treatment of the rest of the family. I truly believe that if I had not finally moved away from them...the man would no longer be alive and I would probably be in jail for his death...and my son would be without a mother. It almost happened once...sadly.

I've had friends killed by drunk drivers...and a few friends killed BECAUSE they were drunk drivers. three of those who were driving while intoxicated in high school died very horrific deaths...they were all together in the car. the driver was impaled on the gear shift...the one in the passenger seat was tangled in the car engine...and the one who I was closest to....was wedged into the back window...and when his mother asked for his clothes afterwards they told her that they could not give her his jacket...as most of his internal organs were still in it.

On the other hand...I drank my share in college... But it lost it's glamour...and I now rarely if ever drink. I think I've had alcohol three times in the past three years. I'm one of those people who knows my limit and refuses to drink to the point of losing my faculties...and can sober up rather quickly if I need to. I'm a happy drunk luckly...no violence on my part unlike the men in my family. The brash Irish-ness comes out and I can be rather entertaining...but it also makes me sick to my stomach...and I'm not talking about the hangover because I rarely have them. It literally can make me ill to drink at times... And my liver isn't in the best shape due to all the medications I've had to take in the recent years and I fear it can't process alcohol properly anymore.

I've seen both sides of the coin where alcohol is involved. The good and the bad. personally I would not feel sad if alcohol were outlawed, I can easily do without it. (I dunno about Ruden though :p He loves his occasional beer and ale.) But I don't believe it will ever happen...it's too interwoven into the culture. They tried once and look what happened? It just got bootlegged...people drank anyway...violence erupted over it...making something illegal doesn't stop people from doing it. If someone wants to do something they're going to do it despite what the law says on most occasions. Especially when it's something addictive like alcohol or cigarettes or drugs.

Cigarettes? I hate smoking but I do admit I do it. I quit three times. I was never before recently a heavy smoker. at heaviest I smoked a pack a month. I quit for six years the first time. The second time I quit when I got pregnant with Connor and quit for two years. Then my mother died and I fell into depression and that's when I really started smoking heavily. I currently smoke a pack a day abouts. I quit a few months ago...for about 3 months. But by now the second I start stressing out I just pick up another cigarette. I hate smoking...I hate the smell...the taste...after every cigarette I have to drink something or take a bite of something or brush my teeth just to get the taste out of my mouth. But the addiction is stronger than my disliking of it. Of everything I've really found the nicotine addiction to be one of the strongest ones I've ever come across. Maybe because it IS so easily available...can just go to the store to buy more, right? Well...up in Canada here the cigarettes are horribly expensive...nearly ten dollars a pack. The price and taxes on them make it a bit easier to not want them =p ...but it's not enough. Once again if cigarettes were illegal I really think it wouldn't matter...people would smoke anyway. However it would keep those who don't smoke from having to deal with it in public situations.

bottom line...people are going to do what they want to do no matter what anyone tells them. Look at all the drugs that ARE illegal....and look at the millions who use them anyway. But you know ...in truth...in my opinion...alcohol is really the most dangerous of all of them. But then again ...a stick is dangerous in the hands of the wrong person. People need to learn to police themselves...learn to take responsibility for their own actions...and not rely on the law or their religion to keep them in line. If you can't take responsibility for your own actions and make the concious choice to do or not do something...what the law says doesn't mean squat. There are millions of people out there who DO drink responsibly...it's a shame they have to pay for the ones who can't do that.

I'm on the fence...half of me really hates alcohol and what it can do...because I've been a victim of it. But the other half of me really says that it's not my place to tell people what they can and can't do and as long as it doesn't affect me then more power to them. But it has affected me....

But also I don't believe in punishing someone for something they're not responsible for.

I'm rambling AGAIN :rolleyes: I know... These are all just personal thoughts and aren't meant to sway anyone's opinions or debate. Just adding my perspective.

I thought it was a great post Aly and I agree with you on a lot of it.