UO to possibly include Spyware!

[Raina]

Okay, I dig the catchy title, but I'll let ya make up your own mind *grins*

-Rai
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PunkBuster Testing in Progress, Public Beta Testing to Start Soon

Player cheating is a serious problem inside Ultima Online, as it is with all online role-playing games. It hurts the economy, gives players an unfair advantage in PvP, and puts honest players at a disadvantage when it comes to competing for resources, spawns and treasure. It’s no wonder the use of cheat programs is the number one complaint to customer service.

We hope to greatly reduce the use of cheat programs through the use of PunkBuster, the most recognized name in cheat protection. Used in virtually all triple-A shooters, Ultima Online will be one of the first MMOs to use PunkBuster technology.

We are in an internal test phase right now and almost ready to roll out a public beta test. We expect public testing to start in mid-July. So far, we are extremely pleased with the results and expect PunkBuster to work with Ultima Online transparently, unless of course you’re using a banned cheat program.

For more info, check out the FAQ HERE (http://www.uo.com/punkbuster_faq.html)

If we do decide to use PunkBuster service-wide, you’ll need to agree to the PunkBuster Software License Agreement before playing, as well as new Ultima Online Terms of Service. You can read both documents HERE (http://www.uo.com/tos_update.html)

Thanks, Darkscribe
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Stratics News Post (http://boards.stratics.com/php-bin/uo/showflat.php?Cat=1&Number=6678020&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1)

Note from Darkscribe (http://boards.stratics.com/php-bin/uo/showflat.php?Cat=1&Number=6678216&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1) on Stratics

[Kyrian]

Sounds like a good idea.

[Raina]

Sounds like a good idea.
I'd argue that no game, MMO or not is not worth compromising the integrety of your computer for. If you glance over the TOS for PunkBuster you'll see they admit it can cause problems, they will take screenshots, they will scan all files on your computer and send them back home if they feel the slight desire, and they will take responsiblity for none of it.

It's one thing to trust the company your paying to play the game, but I simply can't fathom why we should be required to agree to anything from a third party, nor why we should be forced to trust said third party just to play a game, that isn't even theirs.

-Rai

[Sybeus]

Punkbuster doesn't scan all files on your computer, at least that's what their privacy policy claims and they seem to invite people to keep them on the level. Its main function is to scan memory resident programs. I don't think it even blocks based on installed programs, just ones that are running.

However, that being said, I'm one of those people sitting on the fence. Cause I don't like the privacy issues it brings up either, yet I see the need to stop scripting somehow. And I can't think of a better (or even equivalent) way to deter scripters. So to me it's the choice between two evils. And that kinda choice generally depends on the person.

One of the interesting things I noticed is that the updated UO TOS contradicts the Punkbuster license:

Section 2.b.

Ultima Online uses PunkBuster technology to prevent players from using illegal cheat and helper programs. To play Ultima Online on most shards, you must agree to allow PunkBuster to run while playing Ultima Online. You cannot install and run Ultima Online without PunkBuster also being installed and running.

Specifically the last line. Then compare it to this at the beginning of paragraph 5 in the Punkbuster license:

Licensee acknowledges that PunkBuster software is optional and is not a requirement in any respect for using or enjoying games that integrate PunkBuster software technology.

The Punkbuster License is true for shooter games, you don't have to play on a server using the software. But in UO, servers take on a whole different dimension, and I haven't seen any of the people involved address this discrepancy.

[Raina]

The Punkbuster license also states

This Agreement constitutes the entire agreement between Licensor and Licensee and supercedes any prior statements, whether written or oral.

Which to me would invalidate EA's license on UO in the first place, ultimatly making their Terms of Service pointless.

As far as enforcement, if they'd just done their freakin jobs, watch the logs for inordinate amount of gold/resources changing hands, actually answering players pages about 'found a scripter'. That sort of thing I imagine there wouldn't be any need, the problem is EA is greedy and lazy and want some piece of magic software to make their headaches go away, and it won't. My biggest concern is, what if it marks your account for something compleetly unrelated? If EA can't handle GM Staff in the least bit, how the heck are they going to handle complaints or challenges to this? Simply put, they can't/won't/aren't.

It's all too fishy and not very well thought out if you ask me. As it stands, I'd say there is a 95% chance of me not sticking around if this is implemented. The 5% comes in only if Catskills ends up being one of the Non-PB Shards.

-Rai

[Sybeus]

Which to me would invalidate EA's license on UO in the first place, ultimatly making their Terms of Service pointless.

Well, I think you're kinda blowing that out of perspective.

The Punkbuster license has no bearing on EA's license of UO. I was just pointing out that EA's TOS seems to indicate they plan on using Punkbuster in a way that may be contradictory to the license of the new software. We should all know by now that Terms of Service agreements are pretty pointless anyhow, they are really just legal disclaimers that says the company can do anything it wants. But they do usually indicate how the company will act if people try to use their software in a way they didn't intend.

And of course they are looking for a golden solution. Wouldn't you as a developer(used in the most generic sense)?

But I do agree that the UO crew hasn't thought things out as much one would expect. Just because it's used (arguably) successfully in many fps games doesn't mean it fits well with large server capacity, persistent worlds. Which was what I tried to get at with their descrepancy. They haven't really explained why they think the Punkbuster model will work well for Ultima Online, only that it works (arguably again) for other games.

[Raina]

Well, I think you're kinda blowing that out of perspective.

The Punkbuster license has no bearing on EA's license of UO. I was just pointing out that EA's TOS seems to indicate they plan on using Punkbuster in a way that may be contradictory to the license of the new software. We should all know by now that Terms of Service agreements are pretty pointless anyhow, they are really just legal disclaimers that says the company can do anything it wants. But they do usually indicate how the company will act if people try to use their software in a way they didn't intend.

And of course they are looking for a golden solution. Wouldn't you as a developer(used in the most generic sense)?

Of course I'm blowing it out of perspective, that's what I do! Well, okay, maybe not exclusivly *grins*

Honestly tho, I don't care what the intent of the program is, what it comes down to, for me, is that I will not install any application which is parasitic in nature, and affects my overall, general use of my machine. It's mine.

It kinda goes along the same lines that I won't install anything with starforce on it either. There are some programs out there, no matter how good and honest the intentions, that I simply do not want on my machine. As such I have the right to a) bitch about it *grins*, and b) Not deal with companies that I feel, are willing to sacrifice my machine, for their single product.

It's all about personal philosophy, the only way companies will ever get the clue that there are some things they simply should not be doing, is that if the people who disagree with those methods cease purchasing their products.

-Rai

[Kyrian]

Of course I'm blowing it out of perspective, that's what I do! Well, okay, maybe not exclusivly *grins*

Honestly tho, I don't care what the intent of the program is, what it comes down to, for me, is that I will not install any application which is parasitic in nature, and affects my overall, general use of my machine. It's mine.

It kinda goes along the same lines that I won't install anything with starforce on it either. There are some programs out there, no matter how good and honest the intentions, that I simply do not want on my machine. As such I have the right to a) bitch about it *grins*, and b) Not deal with companies that I feel, are willing to sacrifice my machine, for their single product.

It's all about personal philosophy, the only way companies will ever get the clue that there are some things they simply should not be doing, is that if the people who disagree with those methods cease purchasing their products.

-Rai

This is one of those neverending debates that is very sensitive and it extends a lot further than just video games. Privacy versus Security.

Do we let the police snoop on people's emails despite the violation of privacy if it might help save some children from getting raped by strangers?

Do we jail people on a hunch because it may save lives?

Do we allow phone taps ... and all of the other things out there that violate privacy but often help establish security?

When is it too much? When is it not enough?

Fortunately in this case people have the right to decide. Player A may not care if a well-known spyware app resides on his/her PC if it means the game is fair for all who play, while Player B may prefer playing amongst cheaters if it maintains their security.

I don't really know the answer. I don't like my privacy violated at all ... but I also like some of the things that come from violation of privacy. For instance, now that I have two daughters I am fine with people's emails being read by those looking for internet child molesters. Of course, I'll do everything I can to teach my children without that kind of protection but no one is perfect and children are children.

As for my gaming, it isn't fun for me when cheaters are around ... and man on man are they around. It's already been proven beyond doubt that humans are not capable of behaving themselves. People steal from charities while kids with cancer die, so why wouldnt they cheat in a video game?

[Jyrthan]

I used it back in my CounterStrike days - and those servers were wonderful for not having a bunch of arsehole script kiddies running around cheating. In fact, the general maturity level on the servers I played on using PB was much higher than many others I saw.

Would I install it to play UO...dunno.